[Ryoii/Nonomii]

We know that an enemy may do up to 4x their base damage when they have a capped ATK/DEF ratio. This gives those with tons of DEF a fair advantage over those with very little. If you really want to see a MNK tank like a PLD, then we need to see a change to how VIT works.

I suggest adding a direct %damage reduction from defender VIT > attacker STR. For instance, for every 1 VIT the defender has over their attacker's STR, the attacker would have their base damage reduced by 1% (85% cap). THF can stack evasion to obtain an 85% evasion rate, so why not give other jobs the ability to similarly mitigate damage.

This could allow for MNKs to stack VIT and counterstance tank. WAR could tank with MNK sub, medium/heavy armor, and GA. PLD still gets their high def. and shield block %damage reduction along with the new VIT reduction. Some PLD might even tank with GS. This would help out anyone else looking to blood tank. Also it would only start becoming a major factor later in the game when large bonuses to VIT become available and blood tanking becomes more difficult.

This combined with making 1 VIT = 1 DEF while using a shield would really open up many more tanking options. Also this would not replace the current STR/VIT relationship for fSTR. Both would be in effect with fSTR applied first.

MNK Counterstance example:
MNK average damage taken while using counterstance = 400 (100 base DMG x 4)
MNK counter rate while using counterstance = 50% (30% base + 10% from melee gaiters? + 5% from cross-counters + 5% from merits)
MNK damage reduction from capped VIT bonus = 85%
MNK fSTR based damage reduction = -20 base DMG
Total Damage reduction: 1 - [(100 - 20) * 4 * 0.15 * 0.5] / (100 * 4 * 0.5) = 24 / 200 = 1 - 0.12 = 88% damage reduction when compared to counterstance tanking with low VIT

This is clearly overkill, so I'd hope that reaching the cap would not be possible on any merit or xp enemies. A level correction should probably be applied that effectively gives the defender a 2 VIT penalty for every level below the attacker. This would greatly help keep this balanced.

[Malacite]

I still think armor type should play a factor in damage reduction, with each type having a % of damage reduced on top of the DEF value.

For example, cloth would only reduce damage by maybe 5, 10% tops while Full Plate could go as high as 30-35% (anything above 40 would be a bit much >_>)

Totally agree with the VIT thing too. Another good change would be for 1 VIT = 1 DEF.

[Karinya]

And I think armor works fine on physical damage as it is: the main problem for a PLD in endgame tanking is the ubiquity of armor-negating *magical* damage attacks that do 1000 damage or 1 shadow. I would bet that over 75% of the time you see a PLD75 die, magic damage or an instant-death attack (the Dynamis boss/Odin kind, not the kind that "just" does 4000 damage) was involved. And in most of the rest it was sleepga/silencega/etc. on the healers.

In merit, neither a PLD nor a NIN takes enough damage to be concerned about; there the main issue is the tradeoffs required for a PLD to get their full toughness vs. the no tradeoffs required for the NIN (tanking in -30 eva gear with berserk on), and what that does to their respective damage output and hate holding abilities.

[Lmnop]

I'm strangely comfortable with the concepts of "defense overkill" as instituted in the game, currently. Though it would be nice if my WAR defense swap felt like it made a difference. My +10 VIT, +60 defense in my defense swap does make a difference... over the course of an hour tanking. But I get hit 6 times an hour as a DD. If 2 of those are crits, and the other 4 still do 200 damage (while the PLD is taking 50-80), then it doesn't do a good job of encouraging me to lug this gear around. Oh well, I'm still glad I clog my inventory with it if for no other reason than it's effective against EMs and lower...

One more thing: interesting ideas, Ryoii. I have no idea what their repercussions would be, but they're certainly interesting. :P

[Malacite]

PLD really should get Runic...



That, along with changing Defense Bonus to straight damage reduciton (physical and magical) would be perfect. Maybe 5% per trait? (that'd max out at 20 which wouldn't be broken at all. 10% would be a bit high much as I'd like it since that'd cap at 40)

[Lmnop]

Originally Posted by Malacite

...changing Defense Bonus to straight damage reduciton (physical and magical) would be perfect.

Actually I don't think that'd help at all. In fact, I meant to point out that I think the Defense Bonus -> Physical damage -% is detrimental to the rest of the point of your OP.

The original point is that not only do Paladins get little use of their high defense, any job that wears heavy armor gets hit pretty much just as hard as a blm, right? Samurai wouldn't get much benefit from the single defense bonus (from /war) they'd have. And if the Defense Bonus is that great, we've just made /war and /pld good -- not heavy armor.

Finally, Runic has been suggested billions of times. While I think it'd be perfect for Paladin (pending how it would be implemented), PLD's got so much recently that I think it's safe to say we won't see direct job buffs any time soon.

[Malacite]

1) I said all damage, not just physical. Nor did I say I preferred one change over the other. I was just putting out my thoughts on PLD as well as other melee tanking.

2) It's just another idea, intended to cement PLD has the true tank. Shadows reduce all damaage to 0, so why not give PLD some damage reduction traits >_> (I'm aware this would make them invincible during sentinel but big deal, it only lasts 30 seconds out of every 5 minutes)



It really is stupid that there's no distinction between armor types, only defensive values and stat bonuses.

[Necropolis]

Just a thought on armor types...

What if damage type was effected by the armor you wear. Each mob you fight would have different damage type like we have and depending on what armor you wear that would determine how much damage you would neglect (and adversly if you took extra).

I havn't really bothered studing all the different damage types (but they're all weak to Ice or Thunder, I know that :D), so perhaps someone more well versed in this could work out rough details.

[Ryoii/Nonomii]

I'm changing my previous statment that I believed armor was fairly balanced with other %based methods of increasing defense and therefore damage taken. The differences in light and heavy armor in the 70s are terribly sad. Heavy armor barely makes you take less damage.

Lv75 Elvaan PLD
Source - Defense
Base - 18
Level - 75
VIT/2 - 36 (probably more)
Defense Bonus IV - 48
Protect IV - 55
Koenig Shield - 22
Neck/Waist/Back/Earrings/Rings - 28 (probably more)
Adaman Armor Set - 158 (compared to Igqira Armor Set - 129)
Total - 440 only 7% higher than with some very light BLM armor

Armor: ~2% less damage taken per 10 DEF (going to be dependent on your base armor from traits, level, and spells)
Defender: ~16-20% less damage taken
Berserk: ~33% more damage taken
Defense food: ~16-20% less damage taken
Kite Shield: ~25% less damage taken
Cacoon: ~33% less damage taken
Phalanx: ~10-33% less damage taken
Counter: ~10-25% less damage taken
Seigan+ThirdEye: ~33% less damage taken
Counterstance: ~100-300% more damage taken (depends highly on how much DEF you had without it and how much COUNTER+ gear you have)
Flash: ~15% less damage taken
Head Butt: ~15% less damage taken

I was thinking about an alternative to the VIT idea. It would be really easy to adjust Defender and Counterstance. If SE increased the defense bonus of Defender to +50%, we would see less reservation against using it to tank as WAR/MNK. This might even make DRK/WAR and DRG/WAR possible tanks. Counterstance could be improved with an update to guarding that made it reduce damage by about 25% overall and double while under Counterstance.

These changes would give us several different tanking styles: NIN - Shadows, SAM - Anticipation/2H DMG, MNK - Countering/Guarding, PLD,BLU - Defense/Healing, and WAR,DRG,DRK - Defense/2H DMG. The main problem would still be that most players don't have the gear or skill to tank on jobs which don't always get invited to tank. This might also help to bring back more demand for THF and /THF, which could be a very good thing.

[jenova_9]

It still feels like the mobs are using jackhammers

while we are wielding wiffle bats. =P

[Lmnop]

Originally Posted by Necropolis

Just a thought on armor types...
What if damage type was effected by the armor you wear. Each mob you fight would have different damage type like we have and depending on what armor you wear that would determine how much damage you would neglect (and adversly if you took extra).
I havn't really bothered studing all the different damage types (but they're all weak to Ice or Thunder, I know that :D), so perhaps someone more well versed in this could work out rough details.

I think this could prove to be an incredible idea. Unfortunately, most mobs would end up being bludgeoning damage. Though you could make it really complicated and give mobs %s of their damage attributed to certain sources. E.g. 70% of Colibri's damage is bludgeoning from their fat beaks, but 30% of it is piercing. Anyway, even aside that, small numbers such as "Eastern Armors reduce piercing damage by 1% and slashing damage by 3%" or at most, probably plate armor reducing all damage types from 5-8%. But I wouldn't want to stop at just the 3 physical types. Considering paladins can wear doublets, imagine end game paladins with a doublet swap for increased elemental defenses.

Of course, at that point you're treading an awfully confusing balance between knowing what armor types block what elements best, and knowing what pieces have the nigh-useless elemental resistance stat (as is, I know a fire resist outfit can be very useful for certain fights -- but everyone would trade them in for -45% fire damage). For that reason, maybe just the "Celery" methodology: crush, slash, pierce, magic.

[Malacite]

I think just a straight reduction based on armor class would be the simplest and best bet.

[Lmnop]

a la shield size? Simplest solution is usually the best.

[jenova_9]

ya, now we just need a deck of cards and SE to make this idea happen. :)