[Mhurron]

Originally Posted by Omniblast

I think maybe control should be given to smn's for their spirits.

Now thats an idea.

Legal Fishes idea of tying the Avatars performance to the SMN's stats sounds like a good idea as well, except make it just happen instead of being a job trait or ability. +INT increases their damage for instance. (Give SMN a reason to put on pants in the morning).

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Omniblast

Now if you rebalance the perpetuation you ruin A LOT of the items out there, those would need to be rebalanced again, then you need to run tests and all of that takes time. A simple fix of adding additional MP per tick is a lot easier than running through thousands of simulations of how perpetuation should be used or fixed. On top of that they probably might want to change the MP cost of the blood pact abilities if they decided to fix the perpetuation cost.

This doesn't make sense. Everything that affects your MP supply interacts whether you're getting more MP all the time, or losing less MP while you have a summon out. The mechanics of adding more MP per tick might be simpler, but its implications are not, and SE isn't going to just give every SMN an extra 40 MP per minute without looking carefully at the results.

Although your suggestion would cause more problems when perpetuation cost is already very low - you can gain mp fairly slowly with Carby out with the right equipment, I think, but you could gain it pretty darn fast if you had 3/tick innate refresh on top of gear, sanction etc. Lower perpetuation costs aren't subject to that kind of abuse because they can't be reduced below 1 by any possible combination of gear (IIRC) and therefore the maximum net mp gain you can get while an avatar is out is determined by gear and sanction - and since it's already possible to get Carby to 1, he wouldn't benefit at all.

Of course it doesn't adress the main problem of having a pet out for extended periods of time that most people want. They want to have a pet out, and last for as long as they see fit, without little or no impact to their mp. This would provide a huge problem for others as well. Just look at beast masters for example, they have a timer to call on a pet, their pet doesn't last forever, maybe if you don't attack anything with it, CourierCarrie would last forever. SMN's Avatars can be resummoned with only less than 15 MP and they come with full HP when they are resummoned. Would you think that a pet that can be called for practically free (no jug) should be able to last forever outside? (this is aside from carby at the moment)

Lower perpetuation is not no perpetuation. Obviously there's a difference between free carby and free fenrir, but since there are no fenrir mitts it's not going to be easy to reach 1/tick for him. Especially if a change is targeted most at the avatars which currently have the highest perpetuation: celestials and spirits. In any case, an improvement to auto-refresh is just as likely to produce this situation as a reduction in perpetuation costs by the same amount per tick (and *can't* be targeted at specific avatars, or specific playstyles, or anything else, because it's on all the time).

In any case, BST is a quite decent DD in its own right, while SMN is rather pathetic without their pet, so I don't think it's unfair for SMN to have a better pet in some ways, any more than it is for PUP (or conversely, for DRG to have a worse pet).

How many Smn's have you invited into their party as Main Heal. Do you actually think we like to main heal vs. summoning and keeping our pets out to do damage? Do you actually think that after 69 levels of playing Summoner I would still like to cure you vs. doing some damage? Think about it. Most Summoners would LOVE to have a WHM in the party so they don't have to cure.

That's great, but why are you suggesting something that makes SMN better healers instead of something that makes them better summoners then? The "extra" mp from a reduced perpetuation cost would ONLY apply if you actually had avatars summoned, not if you were just curing (and apply very little if you mostly cure with the occasional AA/EW/etc.) Shifting the playstyle is the whole point of targeting the benefits to SMNs with an avatar out. (Which is probably why they have done so much -perp with gear already - imagine what it must have been like to keep avatars out before staffs and everything that has come after them).

I'm sure some parties will still invite a SMN and no other healers, or coddle BLM, BLU and even RDM that refuse to help out with healing even when the SMN is low on MP. But you can't expect SE to unilaterally change player behavior (especially not with a change that *improves* the effectiveness of the current behavior). You can always ask what's in the party before joining it, or form your own parties to have more control over what combination of jobs you end up with.

Sorry to burst your bubble, after the update for smn to split between rage and ward blood pacts, summoner's are now use 2x the amount of mp per chain cycle. This makes most of the Summoner's rest at 2nd or 3rd chan and barely finishing off chain 5.
Perhaps they need to lower the cost of mp for using the blood pacts.

Well, if they're casting both types of blood pacts as fast as the timer refreshes and curing too, I'm not surprised they're running out of mp. Maybe it's good that they have to choose what to focus on instead of trying to do everything at once. At least it's an improvement over having 1000+ MP and nothing to spend it on because you're so limited by timers.


In fact, maybe we should pull back from this whole issue and ask first: does SMN need further improvement at all? Aren't they already a pretty useful and powerful job? Are a lot of SMN facing parties or HNMLS that don't want them because the job is too weak? It may be natural to want more goodies for your favorite job but that doesn't make it good game design to hand them out. With the BP split and the introduction of Diabolos, SMN have gotten a lot of improvements already in the past year or so. It's also possible that a new avatar is already in the works as part of the continuing TAU storyline, and therefore they're reluctant to improve SMN more until after they see the effects of introducing it.

Several jobs have more abilities than they can use at once, either because of shared timers, limited stackability, casting times, MP costs, blue magic setup points, or some combination. So they have to make choices about which ones they're going to actively use, and not try to do everything at once. MP costs used to be less of a concern for SMN than the BP timer, but now maybe they need to think more about the MP they're spending on a BP in addition to the timer. It may not be optimal to use BPs as fast as possible in all situations now that "as fast as possible" is so much faster; I don't think that's necessarily a problem with the job, but a way players need to look at the situation and decide whether using a BP is better than not using one, given the circumstances (pt setup, mob type and level, position in the chain, etc.)

[Omniblast]

Originally Posted by Karinya

This doesn't make sense. Everything that affects your MP supply interacts whether you're getting more MP all the time, or losing less MP while you have a summon out. The mechanics of adding more MP per tick might be simpler, but its implications are not, and SE isn't going to just give every SMN an extra 40 MP per minute without looking carefully at the results.

Although your suggestion would cause more problems when perpetuation cost is already very low - you can gain mp fairly slowly with Carby out with the right equipment, I think, but you could gain it pretty darn fast if you had 3/tick innate refresh on top of gear, sanction etc. Lower perpetuation costs aren't subject to that kind of abuse because they can't be reduced below 1 by any possible combination of gear (IIRC) and therefore the maximum net mp gain you can get while an avatar is out is determined by gear and sanction - and since it's already possible to get Carby to 1, he wouldn't benefit at all.

No matter how much -perpetuation gear you get, you will always have a drain of 1 mp on any avatars. That is why you can, at most gain +1 mp without bonuses such as Sanction and YinYang Robe.

+40 mp per minute more doesn't do much for smn. In one minute we would get 60 MP. Most blood pacts that are worth using cost upwards of 108+. All level 70 blood pacts are somewhere around 162 or 168 I don't quite remember because there is still a delay to use the blood pact, and you need to really use the blood pact at around 180 or risk not using it at all.

Originally Posted by Karinya

In any case, BST is a quite decent DD in its own right, while SMN is rather pathetic without their pet, so I don't think it's unfair for SMN to have a better pet in some ways, any more than it is for PUP (or conversely, for DRG to have a worse pet).

That is why there is such a great focus on the Avatar most of the time. Giving them Auto-Refresh II is a side bonus. It wouldn't hurt for them to keep their Avatar's out longer. Perhaps 2 improvements need to be made, adding a 2nd refresh and a change in perpetuation.

Originally Posted by Karinya

That's great, but why are you suggesting something that makes SMN better healers instead of something that makes them better summoners then? The "extra" mp from a reduced perpetuation cost would ONLY apply if you actually had avatars summoned, not if you were just curing (and apply very little if you mostly cure with the occasional AA/EW/etc.) Shifting the playstyle is the whole point of targeting the benefits to SMNs with an avatar out. (Which is probably why they have done so much -perp with gear already - imagine what it must have been like to keep avatars out before staffs and everything that has come after them).

Go back and read what I typed. I'm not suggesting something to make them better healers. I'm suggesting something to make them maintain their Avatar's out longer for use in battles. It's true the MP would still drain, but at a less alarming rate than before.
Aerial Armor and Earthan Ward both cost 100+ to use, that's 2 cure 3's at 90 mp total or 4 cure 2's. The damage mitigation is very minimal, and it only at maximum covers 250 hp's worth of damage. If you have anyone subbing /nin or is a ninja they don't want aerial armor, their utsusemi is a lot better than blink. A lot of attacks go through blink. Noctoshield doesn't absorb as much damage as Phalanx nor does it last as long, so it's not worth using.

Originally Posted by Karinya

I'm sure some parties will still invite a SMN and no other healers, or coddle BLM, BLU and even RDM that refuse to help out with healing even when the SMN is low on MP. But you can't expect SE to unilaterally change player behavior (especially not with a change that *improves* the effectiveness of the current behavior). You can always ask what's in the party before joining it, or form your own parties to have more control over what combination of jobs you end up with.

I can search for hours for a merit party while on my smn main, but if I switch to whm, I get a invite in 2 minutes. The usefullness of smn's in a party is very limited, since as buffers or debuffers, our avatar's effectivness is not that great. Hastega does not last that long to to be worth using every 2 minutes. Same with all others. It's true that those skills need to be adressed before Auto-Refresh II.

Originally Posted by Karinya

In fact, maybe we should pull back from this whole issue and ask first: does SMN need further improvement at all?

Yes, lots of things need to be improved on smn, including avatar behavior. (more important now)

Originally Posted by Karinya

Aren't they already a pretty useful and powerful job?

Not in exp or merit parties. Maybe if your fighting against Colibri's since they reflect magic, a physical blood pact can get through where magic fails.
SMN are able to fight easy prey, or decent challenges without resorting to 2hr's that's true, but what exp/merit party would want to fight easy prey or decent challenges?

Originally Posted by Karinya

Are a lot of SMN facing parties or HNMLS that don't want them because the job is too weak?

At full mp with refresh, a smn can ouput 6,000 damage with Diabolos for their full MP.
This would take 10-12 minutes. That is without any resists. Most sky gods die in less than 6 minutes. (just an arbitrary # I threw out there) I drop to maybe 700 mp before the sky god's dead. I think that most sky LS's would rather substitute another job in that can do either more damage, or focus on curing. Or they can just stick whm's outside of the alliance and have them cure them.

Originally Posted by Karinya

It may be natural to want more goodies for your favorite job but that doesn't make it good game design to hand them out. With the BP split and the introduction of Diabolos, SMN have gotten a lot of improvements already in the past year or so. It's also possible that a new avatar is already in the works as part of the continuing TAU storyline, and therefore they're reluctant to improve SMN more until after they see the effects of introducing it.

It's true, SMN has gotten a lot of improvements. Though there is still debate on whether or not they are truely effective. I still get people doubting the usefullness of a smn in the party.

Originally Posted by Karinya

Several jobs have more abilities than they can use at once, either because of shared timers, limited stackability, casting times, MP costs, blue magic setup points, or some combination. So they have to make choices about which ones they're going to actively use, and not try to do everything at once. MP costs used to be less of a concern for SMN than the BP timer, but now maybe they need to think more about the MP they're spending on a BP in addition to the timer. It may not be optimal to use BPs as fast as possible in all situations now that "as fast as possible" is so much faster; I don't think that's necessarily a problem with the job, but a way players need to look at the situation and decide whether using a BP is better than not using one, given the circumstances (pt setup, mob type and level, position in the chain, etc.)

I think you might need to "step in someone else's shoes" for a bit and see what the fuss is about with smn. As you stated in your post, there are more issues for smn to be fixed that SE has not been addressing. A lot of players feel that it is a incomplete, broken job. I never felt that way playing whm.

Things that should be considered / fixed / addressed.

• Effectivness of Ward: Bloodpacts need to be addressed.
• -Perpetuation would be a better "fix" than adding Auto-Refresh II
• 2-hour - Astral Flow is a joke vs. higher mobs and Notorious Monsters
• Effectivness of Rage: Bloodpacts need to be adressed vs. very tough+ mobs

I can't think of anything else for the moment.

[Karinya]

I played SMN to 40 before the BP split and I didn't think it was a broken job then. There were and still are some specific broken BPs, but Thunderspark was out-MBing BLMs all through the jungles, Garlaige and CN (when we had a compatible skillchain), and I frequently got WS-like damage out of Tail Whip and Double Punch. Considering most melees at that level take a lot longer than a minute to get 100 TP, I think that's pretty good, in addition to the job's other functions (and I wasn't even high enough level to have the "good" damage BPs). I had Fenrir (which I used mainly for Lunar Cry and the occasional worm soloing), but not Diabolos (don't remember if he was summonable at the time).

Maybe player perceptions of the job vary from server to server - I've never seen a party or LS suggest that SMNs couldn't pull their weight in anything from exp to endgame settings (I wish we had more SMNs for Dynamis; you may not think much of Noctoshield but having tanked Hundred Fists with and without it, I want a SMN in my party if I can get one). Even back when I leveled it (when there was only one BP timer and skillups came very, very hard - and didn't do much good anyway) it didn't face nearly the prejudice that PLD, DRG, THF and several other jobs do even after multiple rounds of improvements. Let alone PUP, which seems to really *be* an incomplete broken job against any mob stronger than T.

[Omniblast]

Originally Posted by Karinya

I played SMN to 40 before the BP split and I didn't think it was a broken job then. There were and still are some specific broken BPs, but Thunderspark was out-MBing BLMs all through the jungles, Garlaige and CN (when we had a compatible skillchain), and I frequently got WS-like damage out of Tail Whip and Double Punch. Considering most melees at that level take a lot longer than a minute to get 100 TP, I think that's pretty good, in addition to the job's other functions (and I wasn't even high enough level to have the "good" damage BPs). I had Fenrir (which I used mainly for Lunar Cry and the occasional worm soloing), but not Diabolos (don't remember if he was summonable at the time).

Maybe player perceptions of the job vary from server to server - I've never seen a party or LS suggest that SMNs couldn't pull their weight in anything from exp to endgame settings (I wish we had more SMNs for Dynamis; you may not think much of Noctoshield but having tanked Hundred Fists with and without it, I want a SMN in my party if I can get one). Even back when I leveled it (when there was only one BP timer and skillups came very, very hard - and didn't do much good anyway) it didn't face nearly the prejudice that PLD, DRG, THF and several other jobs do even after multiple rounds of improvements. Let alone PUP, which seems to really *be* an incomplete broken job against any mob stronger than T.

I suggest you try playing it to 70 at least. Your perception of SMN may change at about 60-64. It may not change at all.

[BurningPanther]

I always thought SMN would benefit from a drastic reduction in Blood Pact cost, if not outright elimination of the cost. S-E kept saying they wanted incentives for SMN to keep their avatars out, well, Perpetuation costs in combination with Blood Pact costs keep things prohibitive. Getting rid of(or reducing) one will make the other more manageable.

[Lmnop]

Omniblast, I don't get your stance. You disagree with Karinya but say the same thing? Karinya says: Auto-Refresh 2 is bad because it'd just encourage more smn main healing, and that reducing perp costs would be better. You say... the same thing? I must have missed something. Oh well, moving on.

BP mp costs seem to suck, I would like to see them lowered. It seems ideal that SMNs can't just use both abilities every minute, but the fact is... the mp cost is so great, that most SMNs seem to only use one a minute, if that. My last SMN did nothing but Predator Claws. I never saw him use a :Ward. So in the meantime, they use all their extra mp to... cure.

I like the tp->mp idea, too.

[Karinya]

Originally Posted by Lmnop

BP mp costs seem to suck, I would like to see them lowered. It seems ideal that SMNs can't just use both abilities every minute, but the fact is... the mp cost is so great, that most SMNs seem to only use one a minute, if that. My last SMN did nothing but Predator Claws. I never saw him use a :Ward. So in the meantime, they use all their extra mp to... cure.

The popularity of /NIN does make AA less useful especially at 74+ (outside of statics, where people might use another SJ because they know there's a SMN in the party or because they trust their tank), and a lot of other Wards are "good concept, lousy effectiveness", so you don't see them used a lot. I'd definitely support a revision of cost and/or effectiveness of less-commonly-used Wards - it would make the job not only more effective, but more interesting to play and to have in your party.

Rages are a bit more problematic since their damage/MP ratio is already at or above that of nukes (IIRC), and they have very low hate for the SMN. The fact that MP concerns can force moderation of the high-end Rages (especially while you're trying to do something else at the same time) isn't really a problem IMO (as I outlined above, there is no inherent right to be able to do everything your job is potentially capable of all at once). The fact that you *can* use more BPs faster doesn't mean you *have* to, or that it is a good idea in all possible situations (especially the DD-heavy parties that are so common today).

I'm just concerned that any change in SMN that can be used to throw more cures will be used to... throw more cures, and if the job needs anything, that is definitely not it. Hence why I'd like to see changes (if there are any) targeted at more use of avatars: lower perp costs, lower costs and/or improved effectiveness for some BPs, less level-nerfing of avatar normal attacks against exp targets and HNM all seem to me like good ideas. Auto-Refresh II does not.

[LyonheartLakshmi]

Originally Posted by Karinya

I'm just concerned that any change in SMN that can be used to throw more cures will be used to... throw more cures, and if the job needs anything, that is definitely not it. Hence why I'd like to see changes (if there are any) targeted at more use of avatars: lower perp costs, lower costs and/or improved effectiveness for some BPs, less level-nerfing of avatar normal attacks against exp targets and HNM all seem to me like good ideas. Auto-Refresh II does not.

This thread didn't seem to about what SMN's needed to begin with. It sounded more like what SMN wants, in order to feel unique. It's sort of like when someone says BRDs don't have enough Job Traits compared to other jobs.

Does SMN really need this Auto-Refresh boost for it to compete with other mage jobs? Are there certain activities that SMNs tend to get excluded from that adding this Job Trait would help get them included?

[Akashimo]

I think its more to help summoner be a summoner and not a TP burn whm when a brd and/or rdm is in the party. Smn just isn't unique as it should be(read: played) these days.

To get to the point, I believe that smns should only loose 50% of thier mp to bring an avatar out with a bigger casting(not recast) timer, along with no prep cost, but they aren't aloud to cast any spells while an avatar/spirit is out. And any refresh effects aside from auto refresh are negated and counts as a ACC/ATK bonus to the avatar with the amount of refresh equlaing to a +1% boost. Idk though, just a crazy idea >_>;

[Omniblast]

I did comment before on a thread for an improvement to SMN, but alas it's lost with all the garbage and ideas that people have put out. I do think that is the most obvious reason why they do not do anything to SMN now. Too much bitching and complaining from the community. (scroll up to see all the people bitching and complaining)

At this point they don't have a clear definite direction to their answer. To their "fix". At this point, there is none.

If your wondering why my response is so confusing. I'm trying to satisfy everyone at once. It rarely works out. Finding win-win situations are quite difficult. This was only a quick and dirty suggestion to "fix" smn. By no means would this be a final solution.

People being unsatisfied and suggesting other "fixes" should post to their own threads. I was suggesting Auto-Refresh II as a quick and dirty fix. Maybe through testing they find that this method works. Maybe they won't.

[Legal Fish]

Oh, and I forgot one of my better ideas for SMN. This one I thought about when I considered the poor rewards for the quest "Waking the Beast", which are pretty bad for an awesome quest. They are weapons that have latents that only turn on when you have that avatar in your party/alliance. Now I think this should go both ways.

Avatar Weapons

When a Summoner is in a party with a character who is using the corresponding weapon of their avatar(for example: Ifrit's Sword), the Perp Rate of that avatar will drop.

Tier 1 Weapons drop the Perpetuation Cost by 2. Tier 1 Weapons are the optional rewards received from the Trial quests.

Tier 2 Weapons drop the Perpetuation Cost by 3. Tier 2 Weapons are the rewards received from the Waking the Beast quests.

These bonuses do not stack with each other. Example: If two party members have Ifrit's Blades, the Perp Rate is only dropped by 2. Example 2: If one party member has Ifrit's Blade and another has Ifrit's Bow, the Perp Rate is only dropped by 3.

A Summoner may benefit from his own weapon. Example: If a Summoner is using Carbuncle's Pole, he will receive Perp Rate-3(which is the same as a HQ Light Staff).

I think this change would put some serious interest in some of these rewards and SMN in general. Perhaps with other changes I've said, a SMN's avatar can take part in melee more often.

[Susurrus]

Howabout just some buyable SMN JSE w/ Refresh effect like BLM and WHM get? Vermi sucks because it gives no other beneficial stats, and everything else is EX. Not all of us have time/connections for a YYR.