[Lmnop]

Since RDM is a support job, these suggested changes work out more as a boost to other jobs than rdm. I think the best, though, is low level 1/tic Refresh. 1) Rdm personality at a lower level 2) the bigger part - easier to get some refresh to the lower priority refresh jobs. This is half of why it's so nice to other jobs. 3) the sub-ability increases mage jobs subbing it. These have all been stated already, why am I posting?

[Jikuu]

OK all your ideas are very nice.
You are covering your average exp party setup
But many of us RDMs have "suffered" from being the one and only healer at party... and with the advent of Aht Urhgan, that means precisely a TP Burn party with RDM as only healer.
For example yesterday I had RDM (me), WAR x 2, MNK, BST, DRK. That means Haste the WARs and the MNK, Refresh me and sometimes Refresh the DRK. Cure all members of the pt... Did I mention we went to The Shrine of Ru'Avitau???? Decorative Weapons do AoE. That means Curaga, spam Cure IV on the MNK, Cure III or even Cure IV the warriors, then refresh yourself again, haste again... OK Convert. Then after 3 min I ran out again of MP, and the party went on and I had to go afk in order to rest and get lots of MP. I even merited on convert recast (now 9 min instead of 10) but anyways I was so tired because of tons of healing...

And that was not the only time that happened to me...
So I am more of the idea to get some kind of Refresh II and get more MPs per tick or something like that to make our life easier...

And don't lose your time looking for a WHM because they're now on vacations XDDDDDDDD Lucky you if you get one on your party. Martyr and Devotion {Impossible to gauge} LOL

[BurningPanther]

I got an idea. Tell them to find a bloody WHM.

Or, if you really do wanna main heal(shudder), get them to kick one of their precious DDs and get a Bard. You need support too.

Or, if you must bend(convulsions), then prioritize. If you're busy tossing Cures and Curagas left and right, not all of them need Haste. Hell, in that situation they'd be lucky if even one of them got it. And the DRK would get Refresh every third turn.

You don't have to break your back for their sakes, make them meet you half way. Or all the way.

BACK ON TOPIC!

Refresh Potency merits <Can I have it?>

[Aksannyi]

I agree with you, BP. Very much, in fact.

I do not Haste but one person when I'm main healing. Maybe two, but that depends on how many NIN or /NINs I have.

I main healed once when I was the only mage. Pro: I only had to Refresh myself. Cons: Numerous people bitching for Haste, no support if shit hit the fan, and the MP situation was dire at times. I don't recommend it. {Bard} or {Corsair} {Yes please.}

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

BRD - AoE, consistant, short duration.

RDM - single target, best average MP recovery and duration

COR - AoE, Random refresh value with Evoker's Roll, longest buff duration /w Healer's Roll to fall back on.

I think this is all fairly balanced. If anything, adjusting the duration or potency or RDM's refresh would be even more limiting to RDM's endgame role and do WAY more damage to WHM than has already been done. Not to mention it would disrupt the balance that already exists between RDM, BRD and COR.

Be thankful COR's Evoker's Roll is wildly inconsistant in contrast to their other Phantom Rolls, if 6 or 7 were changed to 2 MP a tick, people would always pair them with SMNs for a near-reliable 3 MP per tick that lasted FIVE minutes.

Rolling a 6 as it stands right now is vile to CORs because it is almost always followed by a 3 or 6, leading to the unlucky 9 (1 MP a tick) or a Bust respectively. Seldom is it ever followed by 5 or 2 when you roll a 6, which is far more preferable.

The refresh situation is perfectly balanced. Changing RDM's Refresh, Refresh II or Refreshga would totally be unbalancing and make things worse for RDM and WHM.

Would you like to stop being a bitch healer? I think that most RDMs would like very much not to be saddled with main healing like they are right now. I think WHMs would like very much for RDMs not to be chosen over them for the role the specialize in.

Getting a more potent refresh would damn RDM to the premiere main healer of the game.

[Truece]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

Would you like to stop being a bitch healer? I think that most RDMs would like very much not to be saddled with main healing like they are right now. I think WHMs would like very much for RDMs not to be chosen over them for the role the specialize in.

Getting a more potent refresh would damn RDM to the premiere main healer of the game.

I don't understand how making changes to Refresh would impact RDMs ability to main-heal. While I don't think that changes to Refresh are necessary, I don't see how adding different levels of Refresh would make RDMs more desireable as a main healer. Would you care to elaborate?

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Originally Posted by Truece

I don't understand how making changes to Refresh would impact RDMs ability to main-heal. While I don't think that changes to Refresh are necessary, I don't see how adding different levels of Refresh would make RDMs more desirable as a main healer. Would you care to elaborate?

I think I already made it fairly clear, but here goes...

I never said it would impact RDMs ability to main heal, I said it would give RDM an even more ridiculous advantage over WHM when it comes to main healing. RDM already has that advantage and it should not be there at all. WHM should be the premiere main healer, not RDM. RDM would be able to toss this el cheapo refresh at BLUs and DRKs and still be forced to main heal.

Take away Cure IV and Protect IV from RDM and these Refresh changes might be reasonable, even giving WHM their ground back, but as it stands Refresh is perfectly balanced when contrasted against what BRD and COR have.

Why ruin that balance? Refresh might cost MP, but Ballad consumes lot of casting time and Evoker's Roll can bust or hit unlucky. Plus Phantom Roll is a full one minute recast.

Refresh is best left untouched. Take away Cure IV or scale up mob difficulty to get RDM out of main healing and back into their specialties.

[Truece]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

I never said it would impact RDMs ability to main heal, I said it would give RDM an even more ridiculous advantage over WHM when it comes to main healing. RDM already has that advantage and it should not be there at all. WHM should be the premiere main healer, not RDM. RDM would be able to toss this el cheapo refresh at BLUs and DRKs and still be forced to main heal.

Ah, I understand where you are coming from.

[BurningPanther]

I'm pickin' up what you're puttin' down. It makes sense. I don't think Refresh really needs a tier 2 or Potency merit, I just think it'd be cool. I don't think reduced cost or increased potency would cement our Pink mage role, but rather lighten the burden already borne.

Honestly, I think Cure 4 and access to status cures is the big part(not a chance in hell you will get me to Protect and/or Shell 4 a full party, main heal, or not). It's those things a main healing RDM get invited for.

I've complained about this before, but Healing skill has a bit to do with it. It doesn't play a large enough factor in Cure potency, anyone with at least C rated skill can heal effectively, A+ skill in it can fall by the way side, especially when lower Cures(tier IV and lower), can be soft-capped with C skill.

S-E simply never made having high Healing skill a big enough deal. Why would you go for the specialist in the skill when a mediocre substitute can suit your purpose?

[Vyuru]

Refresh is rather potent, and you don't have to Refresh everyone in the party, you can be selective about it. Yeah, pld and whm I'd expect to be first on the list for refresh, blm though? Considering that they should have a dark staff, and Clear Mind traits up the wazoo, they could just rest on the sidelines. For most of the game their primary damage output is Magic Bursts on skillchains. Don't get me wrong, but their mana is not as important as say the Paladin's, or the White mage's manapools.

I'm leaving Summoner, Dark Knight, and Blue mage out of it because I don't know where to place a Summoner, Dark Knights may or may not use their mp, and Blue mages can get refresh traits.

It also depends on where you exp, Signet now gives +hhp/hmp and no tp loss, perfect for Blue mages and Dark Knights inbetween pulls. Sanction gives Auto Refresh, so it kind of balances out.

I do kinda like the lower level Refresh idea I've seen tossed around, having two forms of Refresh, one for the main mana users like pld and whm, and another for the ones that may or may not need one, like Dark Knight, would be handy.

Another Spell that should be adjusted to cost less MP is Haste (30MP?) but that's another thread.

I'd say just invite a summoner and use Garuda's Hastega Bloodpact, or a whm to share Haste duties with. Summoners now have two Bloodpact timers, so the old arguement that another, possibly one of the damaging BP, might be better is somewhat of a moot point. Also, many of the Bloodpact's duration is increased the higher your summoning skill is over the initial level you learned the ability at. Most of these seem to cap at about 180 seconds, I believe Bloodpact timers can be shortened to about 45 seconds, so you can potentially juggle up to 4 defensive Bloodpacts without any wearing off.

I say this because alot of times in exp parties I see summoners using Shiva's Ice Spikes BP. Now that is nice and all, Ice Spikes have a really high and nasty Paralyze activation rate, but when you have a ninja tank, or half the party /nin with shadows, it is rather pointless to make an effort to keep that one up like I see some summoners doing. Not only that, but depending on the mob, there have been many times I would rather have had them Hasting the entire party and save the whm's and rdm's mp for other uses.

If the mp cost of Haste were to decrease, that would help both whm and rdm, but I think the cost of Hastega for summoners should be decreased as well. I don't think I would be in favor of rdm gaining an enhanced Refresh, and lower mp Haste. That looks to me like it is setting them up to be the sole mage in the party.

At the very least, if they were to get that, then some changes would have to be made so that White mages were far superior to rdm in the healing department. As it is, since most whm only need to use Cure III/IV for healing, they tend to get outclassed by rdm who have both Cure III/IV and Refresh and Convert for far more mana than whm have.

EDIT:

Didn't see BurningPanther's post:

S-E simply never made having high Healing skill a big enough deal. Why would you go for the specialist in the skill when a mediocre substitute can suit your purpose?

That is true. Dragoons make awesome healers once they get their AF helm, and awesome backup healers before then. Unless the whm did something crazy like Divine Seal+Cure V+Benediction which equals dead whm, I would expect a Dragoon to be able to out heal a whm, especially with the Relic Helm and Deep Breathing. But there is also balance there, Lumiere can't use Healing Breath on anyone unless their hp is <50%, which for, I'd say about 70% of the common exp spots and mobs, is just too dangerous. I could probably main heal a party against most of the Jnun I've fought, Imps and Flies though? Heck no. Catoplas, perhaps, goblins? ((Thanks for the offer, but I'll pass)

I think there needs to be some kind of balance so that whm are more, set in their role as the dedicated healer. But the balance needs to be so that rdm and smn are still good alternative healers.

[Raydeus]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

I think I already made it fairly clear, but here goes...

I never said it would impact RDMs ability to main heal, I said it would give RDM an even more ridiculous advantage over WHM when it comes to main healing. RDM already has that advantage and it should not be there at all. WHM should be the premiere main healer, not RDM. RDM would be able to toss this el cheapo refresh at BLUs and DRKs and still be forced to main heal.

Take away Cure IV and Protect IV from RDM and these Refresh changes might be reasonable, even giving WHM their ground back, but as it stands Refresh is perfectly balanced when contrasted against what BRD and COR have.

Why ruin that balance? Refresh might cost MP, but Ballad consumes lot of casting time and Evoker's Roll can bust or hit unlucky. Plus Phantom Roll is a full one minute recast.

Refresh is best left untouched. Take away Cure IV or scale up mob difficulty to get RDM out of main healing and back into their specialties.

WHM IS the premiere main healer, if NAs are too slow to understand that that's not RDMs problem.

And taking away Cure IV won't change things much, but on the other hand an adjustment so Cure potency was directly related to Healing skill would.

(And that would also fix complains SMNs have about being forced to main heal, specially if it came along with an improvement on Avatar's fighting abilities.)


Edit > And that still doesn't have anything to do with the benefits a reduction on Refresh's and Haste's (which WHM also get) MP cost would have, specially when it comes to actually enhancing the party at full capacity.

[Aeni]

For balance reasons, I seriously don't think this will go through.

COR
BRD
RDM

+ Gear selection and Items (People forget this)

It will pigeonhole the typical 6-man party and will make HNM fights and Dynamis quite trivial. I don't think SE plans to change anything in the near future with regards to refresh. Back when I played RDM, I thought it was fine. I didn't have issues. If you go back to the RDM forums, I believe Icemage and others already posted on the benefits of using convert regularly in your routine during exp/hnm events. It worked for 4+ years ... why change it?

[Aeni]

Originally Posted by Omgwtfbbqkitten

RDM already has that advantage and it should not be there at all. WHM should be the premiere main healer, not RDM. RDM would be able to toss this el cheapo refresh at BLUs and DRKs and still be forced to main heal.

So what do you tell a party group that cannot find a WHM to main heal? Go log off and come back when there are?

I just see QQ in your post. Are you a bitter former-WHM? Too much angst.

I agree that RDMs are fine where they are. I, however, do not agree that only certain jobs should be appointed a slot in a party. The beauty of the job/combo system in this game is to make sure you don't get into a rut like what happened in EQ when you had to have class x and z present or otherwise you can't accomplish anything. GG GJ

[BurningPanther]

Originally Posted by Aeni

So what do you tell a party group that cannot find a WHM to main heal? Go log off and come back when there are?

Pretty much, yes. If you're forming a team, and there is no WHM, and the RDM and/or SMN don't wanna main heal, well, tough luck.

Actually, it should work the same for lack of tanks. No PLD? NIN or WAR don't wanna? Oh well, back to the drawing board.

It's simple enough to force a job that is halfway competent in a role to play that role, especially when the thousand-and-one DDs out there really only have the one role. They can't heal, or tank, but there's a ton of them that wanna exp, so it's easy to just lump some unwilling soul into the category simply to fit your needs. If he wants to fill the role, that's fine and dandy, but if not, you find another method. If you need a healer that badly, level one for you and your buddies to play with.

And it's not a matter or RDM playing main healer when WHM isn't around, it's matter of RDM trumping WHM as the premier main healer, particularly in Besieged areas, and suddenly this just being taken for granted. There's no reason WHM should behind the power curve in it's own specialty. This comes from the easy access other jobs(RDM and SMN), have to the most desirable benefits of WHM when subbed, in addition to mediocre Healing skill being more than adequate to serve a party's purposes. Paired with a RDM's flexible mana usage, it's easy for a party to pick a RDM and BRD over a WHM. Quite obviously, there is a problem there.

Originally Posted by Aeni

It worked for 4+ years ... why change it?

Interesting question. We've gone without an official windower for 4+ years.... why change it? SMN went without an improvement to Summoning skill for 3+ years... what was the point in changing that? Just because because it's been the status quo, doesn't mean it isn't overdue for improvement.

[Vyuru]

So what do you tell a party group that cannot find a WHM to main heal? Go log off and come back when there are?

I don't think that's quite fair to say. Every single party that I get invited to either has a rdm or a smn main healer, despite there being 6+ whm in our level range lfg. I can only think of a handful of times I was not able to find a whm to main heal, I would tend to think that is more the exception than common.

WHM IS the premiere main healer, if NAs are too slow to understand that that's not RDMs problem.

In terms of straight up healing power, whm is probably the premiere healer, in terms of the long run, rdm wins mostly because few whm have a need to use Cure V, the higher tier Regen spells, and rdm has Convert and Refresh.

A Whm will run out of mp far sooner than a Rdm will, that's just how it is, and this is why people seem to favor Rdm for main healing.