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  • 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

    This is a continuation of the discussion on the most efficient Meikyo Shisui chains that started in the new warrior traits and sub job discussion thread. I made a new thread to prevent further derail and so that this info can be looked up more easily.

    I recently found this thread in BG. It has research that pins the Attack multipliers for Yukikaze (approx x1.5), Gekko (x2), and Kasha (x1.6-x1.7; I'll assume x1.7 in my calculations.) Also of interest is that Gekko and probably the other two also have massive Acc bonuses, enough to not worry about it at all.

    So let's analyze the Skillchains I mentioned in the WAR thread with more detail by taking into account the fact that Yukikaze, Gekko, Kasha and Rana are not equal, and that our WS will be done at varying TP levels throughout the chain.

    Assumptions and Conventions:
    * We'll define the damage of a 100 TP (200 TP in the case of Hagun) Gekko to be 1 unit of damage.
    * The damage of all Yukikazes, Gekkos and Kashas will be calculated like this: (WS fTP/Gekko's fTP @ 100 or 200) * (WS Attack multiplier/Gekko's Attack multiplier)
    * Tachi: Rana does 0.5 damage when done with Hagun, 0.6 damage with other GKs.
    * The TP levels for the 6 WS will be as follows (fTP values in parentheses: )
    ** With Hagun: 100 (1.5625) > 300 (2.5) > 300 > 300 > 260 (2.25) > 200 (1.875)
    ** Other weapons: 100 > 200 > 300 > 220 (2) > 160 (1.75) > 100
    * Damage will be written as such: [X.XX (WS damage) * Y.YY (SC bonus)] + [etc] + [etc] = Total

    Let's run the numbers for Hagun users first.

    Y > G (Frag) > K (Light) x2:
    [0.625] + [1.333 * 1.6] + [1.133 * 2] + [1] + [1.2 * 1.6] + [0.85 * 2]
    WS only total: 6.142
    Total damage: 9.645

    G > Y (Indu) > K (Comp) > Y (Deto) > K (Grav) > G (Dark)
    [0.833] + [1 * 1.5] + [1.133 * 1.6] + [1 * 1.7] + [1.02 * 2.25] + [1 * 3.25]
    WS only total: 5.987
    Total damage: 11.392

    Y > G (Frag) > G (Dist) > K (Fusn) > R (Grav) > G (Dark)
    [0.625] + [1.333 * 1.6] + [1.333 * 1.75] + [1.133 * 2] + [0.5 * 2.25] + [1 * 3.25]
    WS only total: 5.925
    Total damage: 11.733

    Conclusions:
    * All three skillchains do approximately the same damage with their WS; if the enemy is immune to magic damage, all three chains are roughly equal.
    * Both long Dark chains beat repeating Yukikaze > Gekko > Kasha by a wide margin (up to 20% more damage) when the enemy is susceptible to Skillchain damage.
    * Despite Rana being a much weaker WS than Y/G/K, the skillchain it enables is slightly more damaging than the non-Rana Dark chain, while being more consistent (more likely that all WS will land, and no Lv.1 SCs means the enemy has to resist both elements in the Lv.2 SCs.)
    * For either Dark chain to be weaker than spamming Gekko, all of the SCs would need to do less than 1/10 of their damage. Since the max possible resist is 1/8, this is impossible unless the mob has over 20% damage reduction (and even then, the odds of getting five 1/8th resists are less than 50%.)

    For the sake of completeness, let's run the numbers for non-Hagun weapons.

    Y > G (Frag) > K (Light) x2:
    [0.75] + [1.2 * 1.6] + [1.36 * 2] + [0.96] + [1.12 * 1.6] + [0.85 * 2]
    WS only total: 6.24
    Total damage: 9.842

    G > Y (Indu) > K (Comp) > Y (Deto) > K (Grav) > G (Dark)
    [1] + [0.9 * 1.5] + [1.36 * 1.6] + [0.96 * 1.7] + [0.952 * 2.25] + [1 * 3.25]
    WS only total: 6.172
    Total damage: 11.55

    Y > G (Frag) > G (Dist) > K (Fusn) > R (Grav) > G (Dark)
    [0.75] + [1.2 * 1.6] + [1.6 * 1.75] + [1.088 * 2] + [0.6 * 2.25] + [1 * 3.25]
    WS only total: 6.238
    Total damage: 12.246

    The results are practically the same. Note, however, that we didn't use the same scale for both sets of calculations. For the Hagun math, we used a 200 TP Gekko as the unit of damage (since Hagun adds 100 TP), while we used a 100 TP Gekko as the unit of damage in the second set of numbers. The similar results simply mean that the difference in damage between the various skillchains will be roughly the same regardless of weapon. It doesn't mean that you'll get the same amount of damage with and without Hagun.
    Last edited by Armando; 06-26-2010, 01:09 AM.

  • #2
    Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

    You can extend that darkness chain by more 1 WS if you open with Gekko > Yuki for induration.

    Amano owners can keep it going indefinitely at level if if you Kaiten after Gravitation as well (I think)
    sigpic


    "BLAH BLAH BLAH TIDAL WAVE!!!"

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    • #3
      Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

      I just wanted to say thank you for moving the discussion. I kept going to that thread hoping to see more info on War and it was just sam, ws, sam.
      "All of the biggest technological inventions created by man - the airplane, the automobile, the computer - says little about his intelligence, but speaks volumes about his laziness." - Mark Kennedy

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      • #4
        Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

        Amano owners can keep it going indefinitely at level if if you Kaiten after Gravitation as well (I think)
        You can only get one extra Lv.3 using Relic WS if that's what you're getting at.

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        • #5
          Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

          Update: Added the math for non-Hagun weapons, and developed the conclusions more.

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          • #6
            Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

            Doesn't SAM's 2HR fire off WS at 300% TP on all WSs performed during 2HR?

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            • #7
              Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

              Typically, SAMs do this: TP to 300%, let Meditate timer recharge.

              Sekkanoki > WS > WS > Meikyo Shisui > WS > Meditate > WS > WS > WS

              Actually, I'm not sure if that's fast enough for continuous chaining; may have to substitute the Meditate with an Icarus Wing.
              Bamboo shadows sweep the stars,
              yet not a mote of dust is stirred;
              Moonlight pierces the depths of the pond,
              leaving no trace in the water.

              - Mugaku

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              • #8
                Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

                Doesn't SAM's 2HR fire off WS at 300% TP on all WSs performed during 2HR?
                Not according to FFXIclopedia.
                Actually, I'm not sure if that's fast enough for continuous chaining;
                If you take your time it is; fairly sure it's how the SAMs that helped me make my Skillchain damage chart made long skillchains (and that was pre-Sekkanoki.) I've also seen the same sequence listed in the Discussion section of the Meikyo Shisui article.

                Also: The new SAM JA (the one that gives a bonus to the next Skillchain you do) and Skillchain Bonus trait tip the scale even further in favor of doing long, consecutive chains.
                Last edited by Armando; 06-26-2010, 08:17 AM.

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                • #9
                  Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

                  Originally posted by Zempten View Post
                  Doesn't SAM's 2HR fire off WS at 300% TP on all WSs performed during 2HR?

                  No, actually during Meikyo Shisui, all WS's are calculated as being used @ 100% TP, regardless of Hagun's effect.
                  Originally posted by Van Wilder
                  Worrying is like a rocking chair, gives you something to do, but doesnt get you anywhere
                  Originally posted by Taskmage
                  No matter how far an ass travels he will never be a horse. Some people are just bad players and no amount of tools you give them will change that.
                  Hexx of Quetzalcoatl - 78PLD, 90NIN, 90WAR, 90SAM, 90BLU,90THF, 90SCH,90COR
                  I'M BACK BABY!

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                  • #10
                    Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

                    FFXIClopedia claims that despite only 100 TP being consumed, the WS will still use the amount of TP you have left at the time, AND count the Hagun bonus.

                    If anyone has both SAM and a sword-using melee job at 75+, you could test this out for us using Spirits Within and /echoing your HP prior to each WS (just in case you take a hit.) Naturally, you'd need Martial Anelace to prove that the TP bonus applies, but just proving that the WS uses your current TP level is good enough (since the math is roughly the same with or without TP bonus.)

                    EDIT: FFXIClopedia's discussion page for Meikyo Shisui has a testimonial of someone doing the Rana chain on a Dadough Vanguard (BLM Quadav) in Campaign. (There's a screenshot of it too, but I can't seem to link it.)
                    Tachi: Yukikaze 620 Tachi: Gekko 1292 Fragmentation 775 Tachi: Gekko 1602 Distortion 1201 Tachi: Kasha 1021 Fusion 1021 Tachi: Rana 604 Gravitation 755 Tachi: Gekko 1043 Darkness (Skillchain) 2346 Total damage from the 6-hit skillchain that killed the mob is 12280.
                    I'm not sure how much TP he built prior to the chain, or which weapon he's using, but the second Gekko (300 TP) did a lot more damage than the first (100 or 200) and third (100.) For those curious, none of the SC were resisted, and no day/weather effects occurred.
                    Last edited by Armando; 06-26-2010, 09:29 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

                      Edit: Nvm, I see where my damage was off after reading the description, ignore my ramblings.....
                      Originally posted by Van Wilder
                      Worrying is like a rocking chair, gives you something to do, but doesnt get you anywhere
                      Originally posted by Taskmage
                      No matter how far an ass travels he will never be a horse. Some people are just bad players and no amount of tools you give them will change that.
                      Hexx of Quetzalcoatl - 78PLD, 90NIN, 90WAR, 90SAM, 90BLU,90THF, 90SCH,90COR
                      I'M BACK BABY!

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                      • #12
                        Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

                        Shouldn't it be 7 WS then?

                        Gekko -> Yuki (Induration) -> Gekko (Frag) -> Gekko (Dist) -> Kasha (Fusion) -> Rana ( Grav) -> Gekko (Dark)?

                        200% with Sekki = 2 WS
                        2HR = 3 WS
                        Icarus = 1 WS
                        Med = 1 WS


                        Actually if you can get the timing right and a bit of luck maybe Med can be 2 WS for 8 WS total?
                        Last edited by Zempten; 06-26-2010, 06:17 PM.

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                        • #13
                          Re: 2-Hour Skillchain analysis

                          I didn't include Icarus Wing for a couple of reasons:
                          1) The 6 WS chain is the most general situation - you won't always have an Icarus Wing.
                          2) The longer the Skillchain, the stronger consecutive chains get. If I show that the 6 WS consecutive Dark chain is stronger, it follows that that a 7 WS Dark chain will have an even bigger advantage.
                          3) Saves me some time.

                          But yes, you could easily extend it to 7 WS with an Icarus Wing, and 8 WS with Soboro and /DRG.

                          P.S. Thanks for the sticky TGM :D

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