Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

[Tipsy]

I always see 75 SAMs running around in Askar / Usukane / K.Osode / Or Haub, but rarely Shura Togi.

Looking at stats, we have:

Askar Korazin:
STR+5
Attack+12
Double Attack+2%
Evasion+12
Set: Max HP Boost
Store TP+5

Usukane Haramaki:
DEF: 40 STR +8 DEX +8 INT +8
Accuracy +12 Evasion +12
"Store TP" +6

Shura Togi
DEF:40 HP-50
Accuracy+10
Attack+20

In my opinion, +20 attack beats +2 acc +2% DA +5STR and the Eva is useless for damage output (+5 STR < K/O for WS anyway).

As for the Usukane, I would still pick Togi over it, I mean, some of the stats are appealing for different setups, but K/O is swapped in for WSs making the +STR somewhat moot. *I understand it has a set bonus also*

This can obviously be debated, however, I feel they're comparable enough that I should be seeing more Togis around.

So in your opinion, is Togi still a good TPing piece for a non haste/Store-TP setup?


------------


Part 2:

I was thinking of subbing RNG in EXP, though I don't have a Soboro, is the Soboro what makes SAM/RNG good, and is it not worth it until I get one? Typically I would only sub it when we fight ColibiriP

[Malacite]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

Quit SAM. Now.

[Tipsy]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

Prove me wrong?


Also it's a logical observation, if you've nothing to contribute, why bother replying? Your debating skills are outstanding.

[Omgwtfbbqkitten]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

I'm not really seeing anything beneficial to the /RNG side of this.

Why is this being considered for a /RNG build? Because I'm not seeing any benefit to the SAM/RNG combo, I'm just seeing benefits to SAM WS, which isn't the point of SAM/RNG.

The Soboro is pretty much essential to SAM/RNG for it to be effective in EXP, but I'm not seeing any consideration given to the gear that's going to make Sidewinder's land effectively and do good damage. SAM uses Soboro for the same reasons a COR would use MK or Joyeuse with /RNG - fast TP building, but you need the gear to make sure Slugshots land there.

So with SAM/RNG, you need to be thinking less like a SAM and more like a RNG or COR. Attack means nothing here. Ranged Attack, Ranged Accuracy AGI and STR are things you want to consider for gear.

[Tipsy]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

Sorry, I tried to divide the post with the denoted "------------" and the "part 2", the Soboro question was entirely unrelated to the Shura Togi statement. I was just seeing if /RNG is viable without Soboro, typically on piercing-weak mobs.

[Malacite]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

Sorry, I tried to divide the post with the denoted "------------" and the "part 2", the Soboro question was entirely unrelated to the Shura Togi statement. I was just seeing if /RNG is viable without Soboro, typically on piercing-weak mobs.

Polearm still beats out SAM/RNG ever since the 2 handed update anyway. The only exception to this is a SAM/RNG with Yoichi. SAM/RNG is about getting TP for sidewinder/Namas Arrow ASAP.

And Togi sucks compared to Usukane regardless anyway.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

Shura Togi has less effective accuracy boost than NQ Haubergeon. On Ifrit, the Curesed Togi is ~560k, and the NQ Haubergeon is 200k. Why would you want to spend 360k extra gil to TP in a body piece which gives you less accuracy?

If you need the Store TP, Askar is the way to go if you don't have Usukane (yet), but on anything which you can cap accuracy on, the difference between Shura and Haubergeon would be small enough that you might as well save gil and pass on the Shura--on everything which you don't cap accuracy wearing Shura, Haubergeon will win for TP'ing.

[Malacite]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

Shura is only really for MNK, and that was before Usukane.

It's one of the few instances where SE actually made something better than a zilart item >_>

[Mezlo]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

Usukane > Askar > Shura > Haub

for TP'ing colbri. need that store tp

[Tipsy]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

First off, cost effectiveness isn't the dilemma, I've had my Togi since sky was the cool thing to do (from MNK). My observation simply is, even though Samurai is built to spam WS, we still hit more than we WS, and it might be worth while to make sure those hits do decent damage, 'cause at best it's still a 5:1 ratio.

Unless there's a parse (of two well-aware-that-they're-being-parsed players) that specifically shows +attack is far sub-perior to +%haste/sTP, it's a sound argument and shouldn't be passed so easily. I mean, run around Whitegate, you'll see 20 SAMs in the same exact gear, and from the stats, it's not like they're all encompassing, it's debatable at best.

*Noting that it's all situational, this would go for a meripo setting on VT~ mobs.

This obviously is a touchy subject since it seems every SAM has built their lives around Haste+sTP, but it simply goes beyond being told that it's better. Just a thought.

At best they're just small leaps from each other, I mean even Haub is comparable to Togi. And @Ifritno, you're ignoring the +20 attack from Togi, I'm not looking just at the ACC, +2 ACC is nothing in a merit party.

[Losrase]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

(Assuming most Meritpo SAMs do 6 hits to 100TP.)

On the average is 6hits with a pole arm > 1 WS or is 1WS > 6 hits with a pole arm?

If 6 hits does more damage than 1 WS, on the average, then I can see using Shura Togi over Usukane Haramaki. I would try to build a +haste/ACC/damage build. If 1 WS does more damage then 6 hits, then I am with Mezlo. +haste/ACC/StoreTP build

Note: I am not a SAM player but numbers should show which is the better setup.

[Malacite]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

Usukane gives more Accuracy & increases WS frequency, and that's all that matters in a merit pt.

Askar is trash, unless you need it for 6-hit Haub will win over it from the +14 acc.

[ItazuraNhomango]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

At best they're just small leaps from each other, I mean even Haub is comparable to Togi. And @Ifritno, you're ignoring the +20 attack from Togi, I'm not looking just at the ACC, +2 ACC is nothing in a merit party.

Acc+2 results in exactly 1% better hit rate over time. And, the minimal difference between the two item is actually Acc+3, which is exactly 1.5% better hit rate over time. Depending on the amount of total DEX on the player, switching from Shura Togi to Haubergeon can actually cause a 4 point shift in accuracy, making it 2% better hit rate over time.


Details:

Shura Togi
DEF: 40 HP -50 Accuracy +10 Attack +20

Haubergeon
DEF: 45 STR +5 DEX +5 AGI -5
Accuracy +10 Attack +10 Evasion -20

For two-handed weapons, 4 STR = 3 attack, and 4 DEX = 3 accuracy
Effectively, that makes Haubergeon an Acc+13 (or 14) and Atk+13 (or 14) piece, depending on how much your total STR and DEX are.

The effective difference is then a +3(or 4) accuracy and a -7 (or 6) attack, plus a STR+5 (which may alter fSTR) and DEX+4 (which may improve the crit hit rate slightly).

That means Shura Togi's Atk+7 (or 6) will have to overcome Acc-3 (or 4), STR-5, and DEX-5 to trump NQ Haubergeon. Possible? I suppose. Likely? No, especially not when hit rate is uncapped.

Will you suck badly TP'ing in Shura Togi? Not even if you have all the other gears in shape. Will you do better with a NQ Haubergeon instead? Most likely.

* * *

If you don't have the gil for Haubergeon and already have the Shura Togi, I guess it's fine if you want to TP in that. Though, it's hard for me to understand how can someone who was able to buy Cursed Togi not able to afford NQ Haubergeon.

Haubergeon is cheaper, more readily available, and more effective compared to Shura Togi--you can stop wondering why so few SAMs use Shura Togi now.

[Tipsy]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

I don't know how many times I have to say costs are irrelevant; I own Haub, I own Togi, I own KO, I'm just making an objective observation.

I wasn't comparing Haub on Togi, and that's mostly speculation, "probably" and "most likely" don't dictate facts. What I would like to see is an Attack setup vs. a 5hit build, and not a bunch of SAMs cuddling around the same idea that there's only one way to equip.


@Malacite, if your weaponskill frequency is high, but you're hitting like a school girl, it's safe to say the opposite would compare. No matter what, you're hitting a lot more than you're weaponskilling, and it's just something to consider.

[Malacite]

Re: Shura Togi? And SAM/RNG question;

@Malacite, if your weaponskill frequency is high, but you're hitting like a school girl, it's safe to say the opposite would compare

You don't have a clue do you? Oh how I'd love to see BG eat you alive lol.

Reasons why you fail @ SAM:

- You think Togi beats Haub.

- You think attack really matters a lot on SAM/RNG despite the fact that it TP's with a very low damage weapon.

- You seem to think Usukane Body is bad.

- You clearly have no understanding of pDIF and why Yukki, Gekko & Kasha are broken as hell, or that vs Birds SAM fairs much better with Penta Thrust over Sidewinder.

- You fail to understand that while DoT is important, the bulk of any SAM's damage comes from weaponskills and a few measly points of attack won't make or break that especially not vs lolColibri who already have low def & vit.

Finally, if you still think Togi is really that good, YOUR ATTACK STAT HAS NO BARING ON RANGED ATTACKS WHATSOEVER. Ranged Attacks have their own, hidden attack & accuracy ratings and furthermore when ti comes to ranged, the fSTR is 2:1 instead of 4:1 for melee. That means for every 2 STR your DMG goes up +1, and adding more ranged attack significantly boosts damage compared to melee.